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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:May 29, 2007
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Kellen Winslow Jr is not at OTA's.
This could be due to his recent surgery.
More than likely Winslow is considering not showing up until his contract is renegotiated. He did hire an new agent.
As a general rule of thumb, I keep my nose out of contract negoatiaions. The idea of blasting your best players on a message board to save "cap space" is more than my stomach can take.
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 7, 2006
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However if Miller is the talent you state he is and Ben doesn't throw to him, then maybe Ben isn't that good of a QB
Come on, geno, you're not being objective here. Ben doesn't throw to Heath more because he is the third option in our offense just like K2 would be. Hines and Santonio will always be Ben's first two reads, Heath is #3. If K2 were a Steeler, he would be the 3rd read as well. Therefore, he would have less balls thrown his way. It should be interesting this season to see if Stallworth takes away some of K2's balls this year.
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Reputation:95
Level:Superstar
Since:Mar 24, 2007
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Hoya & Mano - Unfortunately I like numbers and have a fondness for probability and statistics and have use different analyses techniques in the pastsuch as Monte Carlo. It used to be a living, now its just a hobby. Call me nerd if you want, but I was actually a jock. Quite frankley the site really doesn't explain the algorithm or the weightings they use to derive their calculations. I'm sure they are trying to be objective, but for Winslow to have a DVOA of 9.5%? Something's not quite right. Do you honestly think that there are 20 TEs in the league of more value. I don't mind the DPAR valuations, but the whole analysis has qualifiers, especially as noted in the first two assumptions. If they don't post the measurables, the weighting etc., then the results are not validated. Also there are many other places where rankings are just the opposite. Hoya just posted one that supports his arguement. (I don't buy that he "stumbled" upon it) Here's one that has a straight forward point system with no weighting. I'm not advocating it is correct either, but it supports the other arguement that Winslow is better than Miller. Quite frankly I'm not arguing either, but both are suited to their system and fan base. Both are effected by the type of offense, QB and supporting cast. Neither side will be able to persuade the other so lets agree to disagree. I know Brittoncomb would like us to still be fencing back and forth on this point a few days from now, so keep the cards and letters coming. Lets not let the fun end
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:May 29, 2007
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Mano--
I could not disagree with you more. With a talent like K2 the TE is NOT the 3rd read. If he is the 3rd read your offensive coordinator should be fired immediately (see Mo Carthon). Do you honestly think Antonio Gates is the 3rd option in San Diego? Do you think the tight end was the 1st option before he signed with the Chargers. Plays are designed with the talent in mind. You run plays for your best players.
Gates got more balls thrown his direction by catching them and making plays. Not running plays for Miller shows that the Steelers don't see him as a top flight player. Just a good player as I see him. He is a solid blocker with sure hands. If you ignore him, he can burn you. Not more than that though.
Stallworth---Hmmmmm. Really depends on the defense and DA's ability to take what they give him. I don't see him stealing many of Winslow's balls. If defenses drop back to defend the deep passes most likely to Stallworth and Edwards, as it has been suggested they will do to stop DA, then Winslow will be a terror underneath. As they creep up to stop Winslow but still double edwards then you have Stallworth 1-1 deep and DA goes bombs away. I don't expect a huge year from Stallworth. Mainly just that homerun threat will keep defenses honest and stop them from doubling K2 and Edwards every play.
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 7, 2006
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Look, geno, I can't presume to have watched enough Browns games to make an educated assessment of Winslow's talent. From what I have seen, though, he is a very good, maybe even a great football player. The Browns seem to use him more like a WR than they do a TE, they even line him up out wide on several plays every game. That is using a player to the best of his abilities and is good coaching. I'm willing to concede that K2 is a better receiver than Heath, I don't think that I ever really tried to argue the opposite.
If you think, though, that K2 would be the second read for the Ben in the Steelers offense then you obviously haven't seen many Steelers games. Santonio Holmes is usually the first read as the deep guy, then Ward, then Heath as the safety valve. This is broad generalization, but you get the point. Obviously the Steelers have plays that are designed to get the ball into the hands of certain players, including Heath Miller. If K2 were on the Steelers, Santonio would still be the first read, Hines would still be the second read and K2 would be the safety valve...sorry, that is just the reality.
We can argue till we are both blue in the face about this, but I know that I'm right here. K2 may or may not be a better player than Heath Miller, but he wouldn't put up the same numbers on the Steelers that he put up in Cleveland last year. His numbers would look a lot more like Heath's than they do like his own from last year. Its just the Steelers way.
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Reputation:98
Level:Superstar
Since:Jul 8, 2007
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Do you honestly think Antonio Gates is the 3rd option in San Diego?
And who are the Chargers WR's? Yeah they got Chambers mid season and he picked it up.. but come one now..
With a talent like K2 the TE is NOT the 3rd read.
while he is a talent.. I won't argue that but on a hand ful of teams he WOULD be the 3rd option.. Colts, Steelers,Packers , Pats, Bengals( when not locked up or holding out), and Cards
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 7, 2006
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dawg...your rankings are useless in relation to this discussion. We already know that K2 is the better fantasy performer, that isn't in question. What the Football Outsiders rankings take into account is not only the offense that the player plays in, but the defense that they line up against. Browse the site, find the explanations of their DVOA, and I'm sure you will be impressed by their research. I'm a bit of a numbers nut myself and I regularly check their site for accurate measures of player performances. There is no perfect way to rank players from different teams, but I like this site even if I don't always agree with it. I mean, they have David Garrard ranked ahead of Ben Roethlisberger in the QB rankings...come on! lol.
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